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Justin [00:03:30]:

Is this the idea that every action you take or every habit you develop is a vote for the person you want to become?

James Clear [00:03:43]:

Right? So that's kind of like my core philosophy behind it. This idea that the way that we develop beliefs about ourselves, that we reinforce our self image, that we develop our identity to a certain degree is largely reinforced by the experiences and behaviors that we perform over time. So some aspects of your identity are relatively fixed. Like for example, if you're tall or short. But even that idea that I am tall or I am short, that's reinforced. You learn that through experiences in life. Now, there are many aspects of your identity that are less fixed than that but are still reinforced by your experiences. So if you write one sentence today, you probably don't think about yourself as I am a writer, but if your do that every day for six months or nine months or a year, at some point your turn around and you think, maybe I am the kind of person who is a writer. Or if you study biology every Tuesday night for 20 minutes, you at some point think, I guess I'm studious. I keep doing this every week. Maybe this is the kind of person I am. And so I like that idea that our habits are like votes for the type of person we believe that we are, that they build up evidence of looking at ourselves in a certain way. And I like to phrase it that way not only because I believe it's true, but also beliefs and behavior are kind of a two way street, right? So you'll hear people say things like, well, just be positive or just believe in yourself or fake it till you make it or things like that. And there's nothing necessarily wrong with fake it till you make it. It's fine to be positive and believe things about yourself. But it's a very short term strategy because fake it till you make it is asking you to believe something about yourself without having evidence for it. It's like that kind of visualization stuff or mantra stuff where you look at yourself in the mirror and you tell yourself I am a writer. I am a writer, even though you haven't written yet. And so what I'm saying is similar, but I think importantly different in the sense that you let the behavior lead the way rather than the belief. And I think that's the best lever we have for changing the way that we look at ourselves, which is to say show up and write a sentence every day, and soon you're going to have something to root that new identity of I am a writer in. And it's a much more, I think, robust and long term way of changing how you look at yourself.

Justin [00:06:17]:

Yeah, I think for the because you first communicated that idea to me in an airport in Denver.

James Clear [00:06:27]:

Yeah, I remember that.

Justin [00:06:28]:

And at the time in my life, I was not doing so good. I was depressed. I think cynical, especially, I think cynical about people like you that seem to have it all together, that seem to be really life, doing all the good habits. And when you're not doing so good, looking at someone that seems to have it all together just can make you more grumpy or more cynical or more whatever. But I remember you sitting down and kind of hashing this out with me and that idea of Justin, no matter where you're at right now and no matter what you've done, you could start today with one action. So if you go running today, that might not make a big difference. But then if you do it tomorrow and then the next day and then the next day and then the next day, at the end of the week, you might say, well, wait a second, I think I'm a runner, right? And maybe after a couple of weeks you might say, well, you know, I'm going to get myself some runner clothes and go and get some runner clothes and then I'm going to get myself a good pair of shoes. I'm going to install that strava app. And all of a sudden you could see yourself. That was a really hopeful message for me when I was really struggling to figure out it was way easier for me to be cynical and just kind of look back at all these people implementing good, healthy processes and say, well, that's not for me. That's just for people. That whatever. But hearing that gave me hope to think I could do that, and it's surprising how little time it takes to accomplish that. Have other people been kind of referencing that too? Is that part of the and maybe that's what's so good about having it as chapter two, because it gives your some hope. Right.

James Clear [00:08:35]:

Well, what's interesting is that that process of changing in that way, it's happening anyway. If you think back to the beginning, for example, if I think of the early days of my entrepreneurial career, well, I didn't have any entrepreneurs in my family. I didn't have any close friends who are entrepreneurs. There was no reason for me to think that's who I am or to feel like I was externally validated with, like that was part of my identity. I had no evidence of it. And so early on, all I had was hope. Right? Like the hope that, oh, maybe I'll be able to build something, make I'll be able to make this work, but then you start to show up. And for me, it was probably about two years in is probably about where I kind of like the scale tipped, and I started to think, I am an entrepreneur. That's part of who I am. But it really took proving it to myself that I can pay my bills through this, that I can actually have a lifestyle and a career in this way. I had to prove it for about two years before I really started to latch onto it and say, this is who I am. Yeah, my point is that's always happening. You're continually updating your beliefs about yourself based on the experiences that you're going through. And all I'm talking about is simply designing that process in a little more careful or thoughtful way, rather than just kind of letting it happen to you and be like, well, I guess I'll figure out who I am. Based on what life throws at me versus how about I figure out who I am based on the votes that I cast each day and what habits I decide to follow.

Justin [00:10:08]:

Yeah. Again, that is a very hopeful message for someone who's just kind of sitting back and waiting for it to happen. What sustains you when you're in the process but not there yet? Like you mentioned, entrepreneur and your, like, man, it took a long time.

James Clear [00:10:30]:

It's a really good question because I think a lot of habits, entrepreneurship is certainly this way, exercise is this way, where the rewards of a habit are often very delayed. What's the reward for working out for, like, three weeks? Not really a whole lot. Honestly. Your body hasn't really changed. The scale is probably about the same. You're probably just sore. There probably isn't like, a whole lot to show for it. It's really not unless you stick with that habit for three months or six months or a year that you actually start to see the changes you were hoping to get when you set out. And so there's kind of this valley of death in the beginning where, in a way, it sort of life gets harder before it gets easier. It feels uncomfortable. You feel sore and pain. You feel uncertain. When you walk in the gym, you feel like people are judging you. Same way with starting a business. In a weird way, it's kind of harder before it gets easier. You start out, but you're not making any money. You feel stupid a lot of the time because you don't know how to make a sales call or what customers are looking for or whether you're even offering the right product. I remember when I first started, like I said, I didn't know anybody, didn't have any entrepreneurs in my family. So I was like, well, I need to get to know some people. So I sent a bunch of emails to reach out and just ask if people would chat on Skype for like 30 minutes or whatever. And I remember sending those first few and thinking, do people even do this? Do people chat on Skype with people that they haven't met before? Is this a weird thing to ask? There's just a lot of that uncertainty early on.

Justin [00:12:02]:

Yeah.

[00:03:43] Habits shape identity: behavior before belief.

[00:06:28] Finding hope in taking small actions daily.

[00:16:20] Mastering the art of showing up.

[00:21:08] Trying to develop new habits in gym.

[00:25:32] Fundamentals and focused filtering lead to success.

[00:30:44] Social reinforcement shapes and strengthens habits.

[00:37:21] Focus on key moments; leverage for success.

[00:41:33] Tips for influencing others to adopt new habits.

[00:50:12] Atomic Habits offers insight into building and breaking habits. While not specifically about addiction, the book's principles can be helpful. Techniques discussed can benefit those with ADHD. Environment design can aid in developing good habits. The book isn't a prescription for serious issues.

[00:54:49] Changing habits is like melting an ice cube.

[01:00:28] Journal with daily prompts to build habits.

Justin Jackson: Is this the idea that every action you take or every habit you develop is a vote for the person you wanna 

James Clear: become?

Right. So that's kinda like my core, um, philosophy behind it. This idea that the way that we develop beliefs about ourselves, that we reinforce our self-image, that we, uh, develop our identity to a certain degree, is largely reinforced by the experiences and behaviors that we perform over time. Mm-hmm. So some aspects of your identity are relatively fixed.

Like for example, if you're tall or short, but even that idea that I am tall or I am short, that's reinforced. You learn that through experiences in life. Um, now there are many aspects of your identity that are less fixed than that, but are still reinforced by your experiences. So if you, you know, go, uh, if you write one sentence today, you probably don't think about yourself as I'm a writer.

But if you do that every day for six months or nine months, or a year, At some point you turn around and you think, huh, maybe I am the kind of person who is a writer. Yeah. Or you know, if you, uh, if you study biology every Tuesday night for 20 minutes, like you at some point think, I guess I'm studious. You know, I keep doing this every week.

Like maybe this is the kind of person I am. Yeah. And so I like that idea that our habits are like votes for the, the type of person we believe that we are, that they build up evidence of looking at ourselves in a certain way. Mm-hmm. And I like to phrase it that way, not only 'cause I believe that it's true, but also like beliefs and behavior are kind of a two-way street.

Right. So like you can, you'll hear people say things like, Well, you know, just be positive or just believe in yourself or fake it till you make it. Yeah. Or things like that. And there's nothing necessarily wrong with fake it till you make it. Like it's, it's fine to be positive and believe things about yourself, but it's a very short term strategy because fake it till you make it is asking you to believe something about yourself without having evidence for it.

You know, it's like that kind of visualization stuff or mantra stuff where you look at yourself in the mirror and you tell yourself, I'm a writer. I'm a writer. Yeah. Even though you haven't written yet. Um, and so what I'm saying is similar, but. I think importantly different in the sense that you let the behavior lead the way rather than the belief.

And I, I think that's the best lever we have for changing the way that we look at ourselves, which is to say, show up and write a sentence every day and soon you're gonna have something to root that new identity of I am a writer in. And it gives, it's a much more, I think, robust and long-term way of changing how you look at 

Justin Jackson: yourself.

Yeah. I think for me, the 'cause you first communicated that idea to me in an airport in Denver. 

James Clear: Yeah, I remember 

Justin Jackson: that. And the, at the time in my life, I was not doing so good. I was, uh, depressed. I was, I think cynical, especially, I think cynical about people like you that seem to have it all together, that seem to have, be really like doing all the, the, the good habits.

And when you're not doing so good. Looking at someone that, you know, seems to have it all together, just can make you more grumpy or more cynical, or more whatever. But I remember you sitting down and, and kind of hashing this out with me and that idea of Justin, no matter where you're at right now, and no matter what you've done, you could start today with one action.

So if you, you know, go running today, that might not make a big difference. But then if you do it tomorrow and then the next day, and then the next day, and then the next day at the end of the week, you might say, well wait a second. I, I think I'm a runner, right? And maybe, you know, after a couple weeks you might say, well, you know, I'm gonna get myself some runner clothes and go and get some runner clothes, and then I'm gonna get myself a good pair of shoes.

I'm gonna install that Strava app. Hmm. And all of a sudden you could see yourself. That was very, that was a really hopeful message for me when I was really struggling to figure out. It was way easier for me to be cynical and just kind of look back at all these people implementing good, healthy processes and say, well, that's not for me.

That's just for people that, whatever, you know. But seeing, hearing that gave me hope to think, you know, I could do that. I could. And it's surprising how little time it takes to mm-hmm. You know, accomplish that. Is that something? Ha ha. Have other people been kinda referencing that too? Is that part of the, the, and maybe that's what's so good about having it as chapter two, because it gives me some hope, right?

Yeah. Well, 

James Clear: what's interesting is that that process of changing in that way, it's happening anyway. You know, like, I mean, if you think back to like the beginning, like for example, if I think of my, the early days of my entrepreneurial career. Mm-hmm. Well, I didn't have any entrepreneurs in my family. I didn't have any close friends who were entrepreneurs.

There was no reason for me to think that's who I am or to feel like I was externally validated with, like, that was part of my identity. Yeah. I had no evidence of it. And so early on I just, all I had was hope. Right? Like the hope that, oh, maybe I'll be able to build something. Maybe I'll be able to make this work.

Yeah. Um, but then you start to show up and for me it was probably about two years in, it's probably about where the, where I kind of like the scale tipped and I started to think I am an entrepreneur. Like that's part of, of who I am, but it really took proving it to myself that I can pay my bills through this, you know, that I can like actually have a lifestyle and a career in this way.

Yeah. I had to prove it for about two years before I really started to latch onto it and say, this is who I am. Yeah. Um, and, uh, so my point is that's always happening. You're, you're always, you're continually updating your beliefs about yourself based on the experiences that you're going through. Yeah. And all I'm talking about is simply designing that process in a little more careful or thoughtful way, rather than just kind of letting it happen to you and be like, well, I guess I'll figure out who I am based on what life throws at me.

Yes. Versus. How about I figure out who I am based on the votes that I cast each day and what I decide to, what habits I decide to follow. 

Justin Jackson: Yeah. Yeah. Again, like that is a, a very hopeful message for, for someone who's just kind of sitting back and waiting for it to happen. Um, what, what sustains you when you're in the.

In the process, but not there yet. Hmm. Like, like you mentioned entrepreneur and you're like, man, it took a long time. Yeah. 

James Clear: What sustaining, that's a really good question because I think a lot of habits, you know, entrepreneurship is certainly this way, exercise is this way where the, the rewards of a habit are often very delayed.

Uh, you know, like what's the reward for working out for like three weeks? Like, not really a whole lot, honestly. Your body hasn't really changed. The scale is probably about the same. Um, you're probably just sore, you know? Yeah. Like, there, there probably isn't like a whole lot to show for it. Yeah. It's really not, unless you stick with that habit for three months or six months or a year, that you actually start to see the changes you were hoping to get when you set out.

Yeah. And so there's kind of this like valley of death in the beginning. Mm-hmm. Where. In a way, it's sort of like gets harder before it gets easier, you know? It feels uncomfortable. You feel sore and pain, uh, you feel uncertain when you walk in the gym. You feel like people are judging you. Yeah. Same way with starting a business, you know, in a weird way it's kind of harder before it gets easier.

You start out, but you're not making any money. You feel stupid a lot of the time 'cause you're, you don't know how to make a sales call or what customers are looking for or whether you're even offering the right product. Yeah. Um, I remember when I first started, I, uh, I, like I said, I didn't know anybody, didn't have any entrepreneurs in my family, so I was like, well, I need to get to know some people.

Yeah. So I sent a bunch of emails to reach out and just ask if people would chat on Skype for like 30 minutes or whatever. And I remember sending those first few and thinking, is this even, do people even do this? Do people chat on Skype with people that they haven't met before? Like, is this a weird thing to ask?

You know, there's just a lot of that uncertainty early on. Yeah.

--------- EPISODE TITLE SUGGESTIONS ---------

- Transforming Your Life with Identity-Based Habits: A Conversation with James Clear
- Revamping Your Life with Identity-Based Habits Featuring James Clear
- Unearth the Power of Habits with James Clear
- James Clear on Cultivating Habits for a Better You
- Reclaim Your Identity Through Habits with James Clear
- The Art of Forming Effective Habits: Insights from James Clear
- James Clear Explores the Impact of Habits on Personal Growth

--------- EPISODE CHAPTERS ---------

(0:00:03) - Atomic Habits and Identity-Based Habits
(0:09:43) - Developing Habits for Personal Growth
(0:16:22) - Belonging's Role in Building Habits
(0:24:38) - Choose Habits for Goals and Lifestyle
(0:29:17) - Collective Identity and Socially Reinforced Habits
(0:42:11) - Building and Maintaining Healthy Habits
(0:51:06) - The Power of Small Habit Changes

## Episode description

In this podcast episode, Justin Jackson interviews James Clear, the author of "Atomic Habits." They discuss various concepts from the book, such as identity-based habits and the two-minute rule. They also explore the importance of designing the process of changing one's beliefs about oneself and the role of social reinforcement in forming and maintaining habits. They touch on topics like choosing the right habits, the significance of decisive moments, and strategies for navigating habits that conflict with meaningful relationships. Clear emphasizes the importance of making small improvements and one-degree shifts to create lasting change.

## Key quotes

Justin Jackson, 00:06:42, "I was depressed, I was cynical, especially cynical about people like you that seem to have it all together."

James Clear, 00:35:39, "You can win each little moment. Just because you ate the tub of ice cream doesn't mean you can't win the next moment."

James Clear, 00:44:30, "I think it's great that you got in here tonight, right? Like you weren't feeling it but you were still able to make it in."

Justin Jackson, 00:58:36, "My life is so much better and it's because of just these little changes over time in the same direction."

## Titles

"Mastering Decisive Moments for Productivity"
"Atomic Habits: A Book Review and Discussion"

## Summary 1

In this episode, Justin Jackson interviews James Clear, author of the book "Atomic Habits." They discuss the impact of the book and the ideas that have resonated with readers. One notable idea is the concept of Identity-Based Habits, which seems to have struck a chord with many people. Tune in to learn more about how you can improve your life one day at a time through the power of habits.

## Timestamps

[00:02:12] Identity-Based Habits.

[00:05:08] Changing our self-perception.

[00:09:03] Proving yourself as an entrepreneur.

[00:15:51] Starting with small habits.

[00:19:38] Overcoming gym anxiety.

[00:26:35] Broad funnel, tight filter.

[00:30:42] Social reinforcement and shared identity.

[00:34:37] Stepping outside cynicism.

[00:38:42] Automatic internet shut-off device.

[00:42:11] Navigating challenging relationships.

[00:43:50] Praise the good, ignore the bad.

[00:48:31] Quitting drinking and identity change.

[00:51:06] Addiction and behavior formation.

[00:55:58] Changing habits are like melting ice.

[01:00:29] Habit journal and trackers.

[01:02:35] Podcast hosting by transistor.fm.

Justin Jackson: Is this the idea that every action you take or every habit you develop is a vote for the person you wanna 

James Clear: become?

Right. So that's kinda like my core, um, philosophy behind it. This idea that the way that we develop beliefs about ourselves, that we reinforce our self-image, that we, uh, develop our identity to a certain degree, is largely reinforced by the experiences and behaviors that we perform over time. Mm-hmm. So some aspects of your identity are relatively fixed.

Like for example, if you're tall or short, but even that idea that I am tall or I am short, that's reinforced. You learn that through experiences in life. Um, now there are many aspects of your identity that are less fixed than that, but are still reinforced by your experiences. So if you, you know, go, uh, if you write one sentence today, you probably don't think about yourself as I'm a writer.

But if you do that every day for six months or nine months, or a year, At some point you turn around and you think, huh, maybe I am the kind of person who is a writer. Yeah. Or you know, if you, uh, if you study biology every Tuesday night for 20 minutes, like you at some point think, I guess I'm studious. You know, I keep doing this every week.

Like maybe this is the kind of person I am. Yeah. And so I like that idea that our habits are like votes for the, the type of person we believe that we are, that they build up evidence of looking at ourselves in a certain way. Mm-hmm. And I like to phrase it that way, not only 'cause I believe that it's true, but also like beliefs and behavior are kind of a two-way street.

Right. So like you can, you'll hear people say things like, Well, you know, just be positive or just believe in yourself or fake it till you make it. Yeah. Or things like that. And there's nothing necessarily wrong with fake it till you make it. Like it's, it's fine to be positive and believe things about yourself, but it's a very short term strategy because fake it till you make it is asking you to believe something about yourself without having evidence for it.

You know, it's like that kind of visualization stuff or mantra stuff where you look at yourself in the mirror and you tell yourself, I'm a writer. I'm a writer. Yeah. Even though you haven't written yet. Um, and so what I'm saying is similar, but. I think importantly different in the sense that you let the behavior lead the way rather than the belief.

And I, I think that's the best lever we have for changing the way that we look at ourselves, which is to say, show up and write a sentence every day and soon you're gonna have something to root that new identity of I am a writer in. And it gives, it's a much more, I think, robust and long-term way of changing how you look at 

Justin Jackson: yourself.

Yeah. I think for me, the 'cause you first communicated that idea to me in an airport in Denver. 

James Clear: Yeah, I remember 

Justin Jackson: that. And the, at the time in my life, I was not doing so good. I was, uh, depressed. I was, I think cynical, especially, I think cynical about people like you that seem to have it all together, that seem to have, be really like doing all the, the, the good habits.

And when you're not doing so good. Looking at someone that, you know, seems to have it all together, just can make you more grumpy or more cynical, or more whatever. But I remember you sitting down and, and kind of hashing this out with me and that idea of Justin, no matter where you're at right now, and no matter what you've done, you could start today with one action.

So if you, you know, go running today, that might not make a big difference. But then if you do it tomorrow and then the next day, and then the next day, and then the next day at the end of the week, you might say, well wait a second. I, I think I'm a runner, right? And maybe, you know, after a couple weeks you might say, well, you know, I'm gonna get myself some runner clothes and go and get some runner clothes, and then I'm gonna get myself a good pair of shoes.

I'm gonna install that Strava app. Hmm. And all of a sudden you could see yourself. That was very, that was a really hopeful message for me when I was really struggling to figure out. It was way easier for me to be cynical and just kind of look back at all these people implementing good, healthy processes and say, well, that's not for me.

That's just for people that, whatever, you know. But seeing, hearing that gave me hope to think, you know, I could do that. I could. And it's surprising how little time it takes to mm-hmm. You know, accomplish that. Is that something? Ha ha. Have other people been kinda referencing that too? Is that part of the, the, and maybe that's what's so good about having it as chapter two, because it gives me some hope, right?

Yeah. Well, 

James Clear: what's interesting is that that process of changing in that way, it's happening anyway. You know, like, I mean, if you think back to like the beginning, like for example, if I think of my, the early days of my entrepreneurial career. Mm-hmm. Well, I didn't have any entrepreneurs in my family. I didn't have any close friends who were entrepreneurs.

There was no reason for me to think that's who I am or to feel like I was externally validated with, like, that was part of my identity. Yeah. I had no evidence of it. And so early on I just, all I had was hope. Right? Like the hope that, oh, maybe I'll be able to build something. Maybe I'll be able to make this work.

Yeah. Um, but then you start to show up and for me it was probably about two years in, it's probably about where the, where I kind of like the scale tipped and I started to think I am an entrepreneur. Like that's part of, of who I am, but it really took proving it to myself that I can pay my bills through this, you know, that I can like actually have a lifestyle and a career in this way.

Yeah. I had to prove it for about two years before I really started to latch onto it and say, this is who I am. Yeah. Um, and, uh, so my point is that's always happening. You're, you're always, you're continually updating your beliefs about yourself based on the experiences that you're going through. Yeah. And all I'm talking about is simply designing that process in a little more careful or thoughtful way, rather than just kind of letting it happen to you and be like, well, I guess I'll figure out who I am based on what life throws at me.

Yes. Versus. How about I figure out who I am based on the votes that I cast each day and what I decide to, what habits I decide to follow. 

Justin Jackson: Yeah. Yeah. Again, like that is a, a very hopeful message for, for someone who's just kind of sitting back and waiting for it to happen. Um, what, what sustains you when you're in the.

In the process, but not there yet. Hmm. Like, like you mentioned entrepreneur and you're like, man, it took a long time. Yeah. 

James Clear: What sustaining, that's a really good question because I think a lot of habits, you know, entrepreneurship is certainly this way, exercise is this way where the, the rewards of a habit are often very delayed.

Uh, you know, like what's the reward for working out for like three weeks? Like, not really a whole lot, honestly. Your body hasn't really changed. The scale is probably about the same. Um, you're probably just sore, you know? Yeah. Like, there, there probably isn't like a whole lot to show for it. Yeah. It's really not, unless you stick with that habit for three months or six months or a year, that you actually start to see the changes you were hoping to get when you set out.

Yeah. And so there's kind of this like valley of death in the beginning. Mm-hmm. Where. In a way, it's sort of like gets harder before it gets easier, you know? It feels uncomfortable. You feel sore and pain, uh, you feel uncertain when you walk in the gym. You feel like people are judging you. Yeah. Same way with starting a business, you know, in a weird way it's kind of harder before it gets easier.

You start out, but you're not making any money. You feel stupid a lot of the time 'cause you're, you don't know how to make a sales call or what customers are looking for or whether you're even offering the right product. Yeah. Um, I remember when I first started, I, uh, I, like I said, I didn't know anybody, didn't have any entrepreneurs in my family, so I was like, well, I need to get to know some people.

Yeah. So I sent a bunch of emails to reach out and just ask if people would chat on Skype for like 30 minutes or whatever. And I remember sending those first few and thinking, is this even, do people even do this? Do people chat on Skype with people that they haven't met before? Like, is this a weird thing to ask?

You know, there's just a lot of that uncertainty early on. Yeah.